>No. My stance is that innocent-people pay for the crimes of others in your hypothetical.
You say "No" but then you repeated what I stated in different terms. Yes, it's unfortunate that there are bad people in the world who do not respect the property of others. We take measures to mitigate those risks like putting locks on our doors. That does not denote a market failure. Measures taken to mitigate crimes against us surely cannot be considered paying for something you do not use.
When I purchase something from the store, I'm not just buying that item itself. I'm paying for all the costs necessary to get that item to me--which includes costs for operating a business. Me paying that costs does not equate paying for something I did not use--I did use it. I used that business in order to be delivered goods. They paid costs to ensure I would get the goods. No, market failure.
>IE: you get lung cancer when a Coal Power Plant burns Coal. Market failure, specifically an externality. You pay for lung cancer that was caused by other people.
As I've stated previously this is not a market failure because this example depends on the idea of the commons. This exemplifies the failure of the idea of the commons, but not the market.
>If you don't care about efficient markets, then you probably shouldn't call yourself an "ancap".
If you're truly interested in having a discussion about morality and theory, why not cut out all the pretentious, snide comments? In this entire discussion I have only been respectful.
> We take measures to mitigate those risks like putting locks on our doors. That does not denote a market failure. Measures taken to mitigate crimes against us surely cannot be considered paying for something you do not use.
> In economics, market failure is a situation in which the allocation of goods and services is not efficient. That is, there exists another conceivable outcome where an individual may be made better-off without making someone else worse-off
The store AND the consumers will be better off if a police force stopped the thefts.
You keep linking to that wikipedia article but I don't think you've read it or understand it.
>The store AND the consumers will be better off if a police force stopped the thefts.
>This is the very definition of a market failure.
You continue to fallaciously claim that absent a public police force businesses would do nothing to stop theft. The claim is absurd and ignores measures that businesses already take today to stop thefts. Furthermore you fallaciously claim that a public police force would stop thefts. We have a public police force. Thefts still happen. You have provided no evidence that absent a public police force that there would at least be more thefts and that option would be Pareto inefficient.
Your argument is the very definition of a non-sequitur.
> You continue to fallaciously claim that absent a public police force businesses would do nothing to stop theft.
They will do something to stop theft, and this something will cost money. It will cost insurance, it will cost security cameras, or security guards.
And these costs will be passed onto the consumer by the store raising prices.
IE: Consumer loses. Business lose. Thieves win.
Market failure in a nutshell.
> Furthermore you fallaciously claim that a public police force would stop thefts
On the contrary. I suggest the police force as a deterrence. They help fix the problem, but the costs of a perfect police force are too great (both in civil liberties and in monetary costs).
So in practice, we settle for a medium were enough thieves get caught to deter crime, but not all thieves are caught.
Customers covering operating costs does not constitute market failure. You should re-read that wikipedia article you keep linking. Also continuing to claim that in general "thieves win" is as absurd as claiming they "win" under the current laws and system.
> Also continuing to claim that in general "thieves win" is as absurd as claiming they "win" under the current laws and system.
I have a far more nuanced argument than that.
Thieves win in your system more than they do in the status quo, because you somehow think that insurance companies / bouncers are sufficient to deter thefts.
A public police force is needed to deter thefts on a fair basis.
>A public police force is needed to deter thefts on a fair basis.
I won't go into the silliness of the assumption that our current public police force is "fair", but what makes you think a private police force/security guards/etc, would be less efficient at preventing theft than a public police force?
The fact that each company would have to redundantly set up their own.
The fact that the concept of private jurisdiction is currently incompatible with US Values.
And finally, the fact that its a classic "Tragedy of the Commons" situation. Of course, you don't believe in that so what can I say? If one company's police force is effective, no other company will fund the police force. (At which point, the first company's police force will lose funding because why should only one company pay for the benefits of everyone else?)
Now assuming each company's private police force gets their own jurisdiction, then all you gotta do to commit a theft is to leave the jurisdiction of police forces. Just like what criminals did before the FBI was invented in the 1920s. Committed a crime in New York? Move to Florida, then commit another crime.
A system of a large-scale, cross-jurisdiction police force needs to be created to adequately solve the problem. (Ex: True, New York's NYPD will stop following you around, but the FBI will be on your tail).
And then we go back to the problem of the big "one jurisdiction police force", who pays for it?
Market failure. No one wants to pay for it, because everybody would rather be a freeloader. Because being a freeloader is the good and proper greedy way of getting things done.
Solution? Tax everybody, then use taxes to pay for the big cross-jurisdiction police force. This gives the opportunity for little police forces (and private security measures) to do their thing in the small scale.
>The fact that each company would have to redundantly set up their own.
I don't see the redundancy. Just because you have locks on your doors doesn't make my door locks redundant.
>The fact that the concept of private jurisdiction is currently incompatible with US Values.
That is true (depending on what you mean by "US Values"), but it tells us nothing of the efficiency of a theoretical system vs our current system.
>And finally, the fact that its a classic "Tragedy of the Commons" situation. Of course, you don't believe in that so what can I say? If one company's police force is effective, no other company will fund the police force.
While it would be hard to say exactly how a private police force would work because we can only work in hypotheticals and try to guess how the market might organize its efforts, I think it safe to say it would not work the way you're describing above. If you refuse to pay for police protection then you don't get it, just like any other private service. There is no commons. Some theorize that police protection (as well as fire, and possibly other services) would be included, or at least required, as part of insurance coverage.
>Now assuming each company's private police force gets their own jurisdiction, then all you gotta do to commit a theft is to leave the jurisdiction of police forces. Just like what criminals did before the FBI was invented in the 1920s. Committed a crime in New York? Move to Florida, then commit another crime.
Bounty hunters, for example, work across many jurisdictions. We also have cases in our current system of police where different jurisdictions work together, even across country boundaries. I don't see why the same thing couldn't happen with a private police force. Indeed, we see private businesses cooperating as a norm of their existence.
According to your objection, it sounds as if you find our current system of many jurisdictions at the planet level unsatisfactory. Do you favor a world-wide, singular government?
I suppose it's possible a thief could take a rocket ship to Mars, and ultimately it would be up to the individual doing the cost-benefit analysis on whether its worth it to pursue. In such a scenario are you in favor of a solar system-wide or intergalactic government?
You say "No" but then you repeated what I stated in different terms. Yes, it's unfortunate that there are bad people in the world who do not respect the property of others. We take measures to mitigate those risks like putting locks on our doors. That does not denote a market failure. Measures taken to mitigate crimes against us surely cannot be considered paying for something you do not use.
When I purchase something from the store, I'm not just buying that item itself. I'm paying for all the costs necessary to get that item to me--which includes costs for operating a business. Me paying that costs does not equate paying for something I did not use--I did use it. I used that business in order to be delivered goods. They paid costs to ensure I would get the goods. No, market failure.
>IE: you get lung cancer when a Coal Power Plant burns Coal. Market failure, specifically an externality. You pay for lung cancer that was caused by other people.
As I've stated previously this is not a market failure because this example depends on the idea of the commons. This exemplifies the failure of the idea of the commons, but not the market.
>If you don't care about efficient markets, then you probably shouldn't call yourself an "ancap".
If you're truly interested in having a discussion about morality and theory, why not cut out all the pretentious, snide comments? In this entire discussion I have only been respectful.