> For what it's worth, having used Clojure for work for a couple years now...
> ...it makes perfect sense to me that they are separate...
> A lib’s container is a Java resource whose classpath-relative path is derived from the lib name [0]
> No matter what some people say, getting started in Clojure is a nightmare. ~ galfarragem (earlier in the thread).
I'm hoping this smorgasbord of quotes is making my point for me - the fact that there is an easy way is good, but the problem is that the easy way is very well hidden and Clojure is competing with systems like 'pip install foo', 'import foo' in every single piece of documentation on Python there is on the internet.
I'm not budging from Clojure's import system being byzantine. I don't care that the people who stuck with Clojure figured out something that works for them, it is stupid and it is a very effective filter on keeping people out of the language. The lesson 'ignore half the reference manual page' is not an appropriate lesson to be learning while working out how to load dependencies.
EDIT If all the other parts of the project build were easy then obviously this wouldn't be an effective filter; but this combined with a misconfigured classpath issue for someone who doesn't know Java well would be the end of it.
Yep..I've found Clojure to be pretty difficult as I have very little Java experience. The language itself is fine, but needing to install and configure so many tools to get anything done is a major turn off. In my opinion, Clojure/Scala/Kotlin on the JVM and F# on .NET all have the same problem of assuming you're a Java or C# developer. I have zero interest in either and asking someone to spend a large amount of time learning them so that I can hop to a language I do like is a stretch. That's why they'll never beat Python in adoption which doesn't require 20 years of knowledge of an entire ecosystem.
No, these are not making your point for you. You bring up :import and :use, but in truth, a beginner or intermediate Clojure user is not going to use either of them at all; and when they choose to, it'll be because they have some deeper knowledge which will make the documentation appropriate to them. :import is primarily for people who understand Java and the JVM. If you know what you're importing, you will understand :import quickly; if you don't know what you're importing, you have no use for :import anyway. In the case of :use, nobody needs :use; it is useful primarily to the people who know why it is useful, and the documentation for it is suitable for that audience.
Getting started in Clojure is not a nightmare, ordinary people do it all the time, the fact that somebody said it was a nightmare says very little.
Clojure's mechanism for requiring packages is far from byzantine, whether you "budge" on that or not; many Clojure libraries have the snippet for including the current stable release of that library at the top of their README on GitHub. It isn't matter of "sticking with it" or "figuring out something that works for you", it is literally one relatively simple piece of knowledge that is learned once and works forever.
In short, if you find namespaces and importing byzantine in Clojure, you are probably at the level of struggling to write fizzbuzz in any language. The fact that there are features other than :require in ns does not indicate that :require is complicated, it just indicates that ns has features.
Somehow a language designed from scratch with all the purported wisdom of Lisp ended up with a nastier import solution than JavaScript, which had none out of the box for its first two decades of life, and then had to reconcile as many as 5 different module systems.
Am I missing something here? The experience is basically the same as the best available in JavaScript/TypeScript, how is it "nastier" or even "nasty" at all?
Also Clojure is doing just fine, not sure what you mean by "dying". The core and the tooling continue to improve, there are lots of libraries, more people writing than ever. I just don't see this death you're describing.
The comments here just strike me as ignorant and incoherent as a whole. Why do people who clearly have no experience actually trying to do something in Clojure have so much to say about it?
Clojure may support things that look daunting to you, but if you actually had any goal other than critiquing the variety of things you actually have no use for, you would not have the difficulties you describe.
Maybe I'm spoiled, I remember JDK setup being a pain on Windows a decade ago when I used it last, if that's the problem then I get it. My spoiled experience on a system with a functioning package manager is basically install-and-go, and
zero configuration required to get CIDER going after that.
I just don't get what's so bad about it, it's basically the same experience as Rust with Cargo; is that another "nasty" experience? What language with package manager has a better experience?
> ...it makes perfect sense to me that they are separate...
> A lib’s container is a Java resource whose classpath-relative path is derived from the lib name [0]
> No matter what some people say, getting started in Clojure is a nightmare. ~ galfarragem (earlier in the thread).
I'm hoping this smorgasbord of quotes is making my point for me - the fact that there is an easy way is good, but the problem is that the easy way is very well hidden and Clojure is competing with systems like 'pip install foo', 'import foo' in every single piece of documentation on Python there is on the internet.
I'm not budging from Clojure's import system being byzantine. I don't care that the people who stuck with Clojure figured out something that works for them, it is stupid and it is a very effective filter on keeping people out of the language. The lesson 'ignore half the reference manual page' is not an appropriate lesson to be learning while working out how to load dependencies.
EDIT If all the other parts of the project build were easy then obviously this wouldn't be an effective filter; but this combined with a misconfigured classpath issue for someone who doesn't know Java well would be the end of it.
[0] https://clojure.org/reference/libs