You think it's cynical to change your argument to fit your audience? I don't understand this.
The basic argument is "If you think it was legitimate when X country did this, then what's different here?" I think it's very valid to find an X that the person you're speaking to will actually agree with.
I don't think it's using an historic atrocity, it's using an analogy. And btw, the analogy isn't to Dresden, because Israel is at the very least claiming it isn't targeting civilians in that manner. The comparison is to ISIS/Iraq/Afghanistan/etc.
You can legitimately think that those wars weren't justified, or that no war is ever justified. Some people think that way. I think most people don't think that way.
I certainly don't, and I think a war against Hamas is incredibly justified. That doesn't mean I automatically agree with everything Israel does btw, nor should it.
> And btw, the analogy isn't to Dresden, because Israel is at the very least claiming it isn't targeting civilians in that manner. The comparison is to ISIS/Iraq/Afghanistan/etc.
'The comparison' in fact varies according to what defenders of Israeli disproportionate violence against Gazan civilians actually say. That particular example is one I saw made on television: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewLx9XN8sLc
And indeed the comparison was made specifically to justify the measures that Israel has taken which indisputably affect primarily civilians (the siege, which there is very wide agreement constitutes a war crime). And the Israeli politician in the video does in fact react with opprobrium to the suggestion that the Allied bombing of civilians in WWII might not have been one of the just elements of the war.
There should be no real analogy to Dresden in any case; WWI night time bombing raids were carried from altitude above flak defenses over blacked out cities prior to GPS using dead reckoning and uncertain waypoint identification.
Dresden was defended as the justified bombing of a strategic target, a major rail transport and communication centre, housing 110 factories and 50,000 workers in support of the German war effort.
Had the technology of the time included GPS positioning and laser guided missiles there would not have been widespread bombing across the broader city area "just to be sure".
The issue here today is an incredibly high civilian to justified target ratio despite having centimeter precison targeting and high resolution overview of the region of interest.
Deeper issues go back into the history of strategies of minority groups with decision making powers on both sides that resulted in dragging a majority of civilians into this current situation.
> The issue here today is an incredibly high civilian to justified target ratio despite having centimeter precison targeting and high resolution overview of the region of interest.
You don't know what the civilian to justified target ratio is. I don't know it. No one in the world really knows, except the actual IDF. Their estimate, last I heard, is about 2 civilians killed for every militant killed. Which is awful, but is more-or-less in line with similar wars carried out by Western countries in the past, as far as I can tell.
> The issue here today is an incredibly high civilian to justified target ratio despite having centimeter precison targeting and high resolution overview of the region of interest.
You make it sound like a lot more precision is possible than I think reality warrants. According to Israel at least (and backed up by the US), Hamas militants are hiding in civilian clothes among civilians. No overview of the area and no GPS makes it easily possible to tell them apart.
We both know, unless you are operating with deliberate ignorance, what various authorities with a history of checking past claims have said about the reported M&M stats, eg:
No evidence of inflated mortality reporting from the Gaza Ministry of Health
Are you saying the IDF has had troops on the ground in Gaza verifying the M&M stats? Or are you simply stating that you believe the IDF?
Either way, as neither of us are an expert here I suggest you take this up with The Lancet and the UN, etc.
I have stated as a simple matter of verifiable fact that vastly more precision is both possible and achievable today in 2023 than was the case in WWII night time bombing.
The IDF are hitting the targets that they have chosen to hit.
If they have poor intelligence then perhaps they should not fire their weapons.
I didn't say the numbers from the Gaza MoH were wrong, I'm not sure where you got that idea (though see footnote). As far as I know, they simply don't report a breakdown of civilian vs militant, which makes it impossible to rely on their numbers for the purpose you talked about.
> Are you saying the IDF has had troops on the ground in Gaza verifying the M&M stats? Or are you simply stating that you believe the IDF?
I do trust the IDF, yes. And obviously it has troops on the ground in Gaza, it's a ground invasion.
Their numbers are largely in line with the MoH reported numbers, except they add that they've killed 1 militant for every 2 civilians.
You might not trust this number, but there is no other number to use as far as I know. Though if you trust the MoH number but not the IDF's number, I'm... not sure why.
>I have stated as a simple matter of verifiable fact that vastly more precision is both possible and achievable today in 2023 than was the case in WWII night time bombing.
> The IDF are hitting the targets that they have chosen to hit.
Yes, I agree with this.
Note 1: While the historical numbers given by the MoH were accurate, this doesn't necessarily mean that in the current war their numbers are sound. The current war is very, very different from previous conflicts in Gaza, making both the fog of war and incentive to lie very different.
Some things that give pause on their numbers is that they have been shown to give vastly inflated numbers already (e.g. the "Hospital bombing", which Hamas claimed was conducted by Israel but wasn't as verified by numerous third parties, was initially given a death toll of 500, though later third parties put it at much closer to 50, iirc).
The basic argument is "If you think it was legitimate when X country did this, then what's different here?" I think it's very valid to find an X that the person you're speaking to will actually agree with.