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> Frank’s chief software engineer, Patrick Vovor, testified that Javice had asked him to generate synthetic data to support her claim that the company had more than 4 million users. When Vovor asked if that was legal, prosecutors said, Javice and Amar assured him that it was — and told him they didn’t want to end up in orange prison jumpsuits. Vovor testified that he refused to help. “I told them I would not do anything illegal,” Vovor told jurors.

> Seeking to dent Vovor’s credibility, defense lawyers suggested he was resentful that Javice didn’t want to date him.

That is one hell of a defense



This should be used as an example in engineering ethics classes for how important it is to say "no" to your employer when you are asked to do something that doesn't pass the smell test, no matter how trivial it may seem. This simple act saved the guy his career and (potentially) freedom.


You mean like sitting idle by your CEO, while he propagates FSD lies for years that can and will and did get people killed?

https://youtu.be/BFdWsJs6z4c?t=31


> engineering ethics classes

Sidebar: do these exist these days? I mean in software, specifically.


Yes, all accredited institutions are required to have one as part of their Computer Science curriculum.


Yeah, I think it's an ABET requirement for accreditation of engineering degrees.

Lots of people with an engineering title don't have an engineering degree though. And of course, passing the class doesn't mean you'll be ethical. Knowing the material and acting on it are different. Also, understanding the requirements and working right at the edge of them is engineering...



If you didn't have one, this is a great book: https://www.amazon.com/Human-Error-James-Reason/dp/052131419...

Was used at Drexel in the 00s.


UIUC still has it, and it is required for a CS degree: https://siebelschool.illinois.edu/academics/courses/cs210


I had one at University of Michigan, but that was almost a decade ago now.


[flagged]


If you're a witness with damning evidence, literally anything you will ever do, as well as anything you didn't do will be used to impeach your credibility in court.

That's what lawyers do. They throw shit and see what sticks.


This is the job of a lawyer. And it's a knife that cuts both ways. You hate them when you are on the stop, and you love (?) them when they do your dirty bidding.

  What do you call 500 lawyers lying on the bottom of the ocean?
  A good start...
  (The War of the Roses, 1989)


Or a subordinate?

If you're a guy you are always going to be open to accusations of impropriety with or from a woman.

Whether yours the boss or the subordinate doesn't make a difference.

Best approach is to keep the relationship friendly, cordial and at a distance.


> Best approach is to keep the relationship friendly, cordial and at a distance.

How would that help defend you against the accusation that you resented her not wanting to date you?


> How would that help defend you against the accusation that you resented her

That's the "cordial and friendly" part; if you've never expressed any negativity about her it boosts your credibility.

> not wanting to date you?

That's the "distance" part.

If you've never approached her in private, or for watercooler chat, or had lunch in the cafeteria together, or got coffee together ... that buys you some credibility.

In short, you never reached out to her for anything other than a work request, made in a work-provided channel (email, slack, etc), and only reached out verbally/telephonically/in-person when urgency was required.


I agree with you. However, there are cases were even that kind of behaviour is turned around to stab you as a male... Not making any personal connection is considered creepy by some, and there have been cases were that was reported to HR.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5UZetLBx5AA


This kind of risk mitigation is probably a losing strategy. Lawyers will find any reason to crucify you.


> This kind of risk mitigation is probably a losing strategy. Lawyers will find any reason to crucify you.

Right, but much better for them to have flimsy reasons that literally won't pass even a cursory glance by a court (like alone time with someone), than give them situations which allows them to introduce doubt about your innocence.


Refusing to work for or hire the opposite sex is also one of those reasons...


Because if your relationship is friendly, cordial and appropriately distanced, there would then be no evidence that you resent her not wanting to date you.

Come on guys, this stuff is pretty simple.


There would also be no evidence that you didn't. They look exactly the same.

All this would do is provide support for the idea that she didn't want to date you, and you were aware of that.


The legal system doesn't require you to prove your innocence


> The legal system doesn't require you to prove your innocence

Only in criminal cases. In civil suits, you'll have to prove your innocence.


Those are just words; they don't describe the actual behavior of the system.


Example?


https://www.law.umich.edu/special/exoneration/Pages/casedeta...

If you don't know how things work, maybe you shouldn't talk as if you do know.


or, and hear me out here: just don't ask them out on a date.

If you read the court transcript, he actually did ask her out on a date and she said no :)


> If you read the court transcript, he actually did ask her out on a date and she said no :)

I didn't read the court transcripts, but my understanding from the various stories was that she claimed he asked her out on a date.

She claimed lots of things, much of which appears to have been outright lies.


No, the stories are very careful, but i get it - they parse words.

AFAIK, he did not deny that he made romantic overtures (or whatever the hell phrase they used, i can look it up again if you care).

If he denied it, i don't see it.

What he denied was that he was resentful she said no, and in any way used it against her :)

If they had no evidence, etc, it would not be an even mildly viable way of attacking his credibility (IE ignoring whether it's smart/dumb/ethical/etc, if wouldn't be effective).

It would also be cut off by a judge very quickly because you'd lack any foundation.

So it would be a very short questioning, too.

IE you'd end up STH like this:

"Q:Did you ever ask her out on a date

A: No

Q: Did you ever flirt with her

A: No

<3 other ways of asking the same question>

Q: So you weren't resentful she declined to date you or flirt back

A: No "

At this point, if you try to go further, you have no basis on which to do so, it will be objected to, you will be forced to move on. Actually, you probably won't even get to ask the last question if they answer no to all the others, it will get objected to, you will have to withdraw it, the jury will think you are an ass.

You'd have to have evidence to impeach them or ask them about (IE conversations they admitted to, etc).

Or they'd have to say yes to one of these questions, so you could hammer them some more.

A ton of no's like the above where you have nothing else just make you look desperate to a jury, and worse than doing nothing, so you really wouldn't do it, even if you are losing badly.


[EDIT: Found a link - https://artvoice.com/2025/03/10/witness-testimony-raises-que...]

    A particularly revealing aspect of Menchel’s cross-examination focused on Mr. Vovor’s feelings toward Ms. Javice. He admitted to sending her flowers, messages, photos, playlists, and even a card without signing his name, instead using a heart emoji. His behavior had previously led to a human resources complaint by Ms. Javice, resulting in a discussion with the company’s legal and Human Resources representative.
[EDIT: All of the below is now inaccurate]

> AFAIK, he did not deny that he made romantic overtures

Depends on how it's phrased - it's common to preface with "What's not explicitly addressed is denied. My Client reserves the right to address the unaddressed claim in the future." in court papers, but I'm not sure if that works for witness-box testimony.

TBH, if he neither denied it nor admitted it while in the witness box, then it is unlikely he was asked the question "Did you make any romantic overture to $X" at all.

And, to be even more honest, if her lawyer avoided asking that question, it's because he knew the answer already.

> (or whatever the hell phrase they used, i can look it up again if you care).

Actually I cannot find the court transcript (my google fu is failing). Do you have a link?

It seems a pretty important part of this thread's premise; assuming that the main witness [did/did not] ask out his boss on a date.


No surprises here, companies will tell this to your face on day 1. Asking your boss/subordinate out on a date is frowned upon and will be used aggressively against you.


The accusation didn't work.


This time. In many other cases, it work[s,ed].


This seems like something you want to be true more than something that actually is true.


Citation?


So, say something like "I can't work for a woman"?


At least this story shows that it can be dangerous and will be abused on purpose. Make of that whatever you like.


No, this story shows that if you ask your boss out on a date, and they say no, and your boss gets in trouble and you are the star witness, they will try to use your idiocy against you.

Why do you insist on making this about one-way false claims of sexual harassment, etc, that didn't happen, when it's about something that did happen.

This guy did ask his boss out on a date. Which is just ... beyond stupid. Yet somehow you insist on making this about things that did not.

You seem to have a serious axe to grind.


It's a very new account and says stuff like this. It's a pattern if you've been on HN long enough. I suggest we don't feed the troll.


don’t think you can generalize to all women from this story. might as well say “never work for a man”. men have done plenty of bad things as bosses.

have you yourself had a bad experience with women in management?


It's not only about having a boss. When a man and a woman land on opposite sides, the man stands a risk to be accused of sexual harassment, misconduct and being misogynistic.


Can you provide clarification?


Can you stop pretending you need clarification on what is meant here?


Did you read the transcript?

He actually did ask her out on a date.

Maybe just don't ask your boss out on a date?


I just presumed it was guy on guy.

Modern sexuality might mean that avoiding the opposite sex is off little help. Instead you need to know how to avoid manipulative sociopaths - which takes years of experience to learn (and perhaps after you learn the skills you decide to join them).


Yeah, I slipped by not mentioning homosexuality. However, while we are at pedantry: Homosexuality isn't particularily a modern phenomenon either. So we both erred on the side of inclusive speech... However, it doesn't really matter in this context, I was particularily refering to male/female, given the whole metoo thing and "trust all women" and all that. As a male, you're particularily exposed to female claims usually being the end of your reputation.





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