> May or may not be

Yes, this is my point. It can't be concluded that they are not stealing to meet their needs.

It certainly can be concluded it isn’t for a direct need, which is not ‘stealing bread to feed starving kids’.

> it isn’t for a direct need

Well, right, but that's not what I was refuting.

Stealing to meet abstract secondary needs is criminal for a reason. People don’t sympathize with it because everyone has needs, and if everyone stole to meet them instead of find something more productive to do, society would collapse into anarchy.

So yes, I am refuting what you are saying.

> So yes, I am refuting what you are saying.

You're not. You acknowledge my point

> Stealing to meet abstract secondary needs

But do not refute that this is the reason for the theft, only argue that it is wrong regardless. My only point is that the theft is "a matter of meeting peoples needs".

> criminal for a reason

I'm not sure of your overall point. Stealing bread to eat is also criminal for the same reasons.

If your point is ‘stealing is to meet people’s needs’ then there is no point.

Unless you think anyone was proposing they did it to set it on fire instead?

Needs are also often defined arbitrarily, and many people steal because they ‘need’ more drugs, for example. So, who cares?

> Needs are also often defined arbitrarily

I thought they'd be defined as real needs like food, warmth, safety. That seems a reasonable assumption.

> then there is no point

No, there is a point. The commenter I initially replied to wrote

> This isn't a matter of meeting peoples needs

My point is that this statement seems to be false for the reasons that I've given.