Hacker Newsnew | past | comments | ask | show | jobs | submitlogin

What do you mean? Ship computer with preinstalled Linux that you can't tamper? Sounds like Android. For ordinary computers, secure boot is fully configurable, so it won't work: I can disable it, I can install my own keys, etc. Any for any userspace way to check it I'll fool you, if I own the kernel.




No, just have the anti-cheat trust kernels signed by the major Linux vendors and use secure boot with remote attestation. Remote attestation can't be fooled from kernel space, that's the entire point of the technology.

That way you could use an official kernel from Fedora, Ubuntu, Debian, Arch etc. A custom one wouldn't be supported but that's significantly better than blocking things universally.


You can't implement remote attestation without a full chain of exploits (from the perspective of the user). Remote attestation works on Android because there is dedicated hardware to directly establish communication with Google's servers that runs independent (as a backchannel). There is no such hardware in PCs. Software based attestation is easily fooled on previous Android/Linux.

The call asks the TPM to display the signed boot chain, you can't fake that because it wouldnt be cryptographically valid. The TPM is that independent hardware.

How would that be implemented? I'd be curious to know.

I'm not aware that a TPM is capable of hiding a key without the OS being able to access/unseal it at some point. It can display a signed boot chain but what would it be signed with?

If it's not signed with a key out of the reach of the system, you can always implement a fake driver pretty easily to spoof it.


I guess something like that: https://tpm2-software.github.io/tpm2-tss/getting-started/201...

Basically TPM includes key that's also signed with manufacturer key. You can't just extract it and signature ensures that this key is "trusted". When asked, TPM will return boot chain (including bootloader or UKI hash), signed by its own key which you can present to remote party. The whole protocol is more complicated and includes challenge.


Tpm isn't designed for this use case. You can use it for disk encryption or for identity attestation but step 1 for id attestation is asking the tpm to generate a key and then trusting that fingerprint from then on after doing a test sign with a binary blob. The running kernel is just a binary that can be hashed and whitelisted by a user space application. Don't need tpm for that.

This is called the Endorsement Key, and you're correct, it never leaves the TPM. The TPM is a "black box" to the OS.

Ah, got it. With enough motivation this is still pretty easily defeated though. The key is in some kind of NVRAM, which can be read with specialized equipment, and once it's out, you can use it to spoof signatures on a different machine and cheat as usual. The TPM implementations of a lot of consumer hardware is also rather questionable.

These attestation methods would probably work well enough if you pin a specific key like for a hardened anti-evil-maid setup in a colo, but I doubt it'd work if it trusts a large number of vendor keys by default.


Once it's out you could but EKs are unique and tied to hardware. Using an EK to sign a boot state on hardware that doesn't match is a flag to an anti-cheat tool, and would only ever work for one person.

It also means that if you do get banned for any reason (obvious cheating) they then ban the EK and you need to go source more hardware.

It's not perfect but it raises the bar significantly for cheaters to the point that they don't bother.


> Using an EK to sign a boot state on hardware that doesn't match is a flag to an anti-cheat tool

The idea is you implement a fake driver to sign whatever message you want and totally faking your hardware list too. As long as they are relatively similar models I doubt there's a good way to tell.

Yeah, I think there are much easier ways to cheat at this point, like robotics/special hardware, so it probably does raise the bar.


Any sane scheme would whitelist TPM implementations. Anyway fTPMs are a thing now which would ultimately tie the underlying security of the anticheat to the CPU manufacturer.



Guidelines | FAQ | Lists | API | Security | Legal | Apply to YC | Contact

Search: