Yes that is what OP is saying and OP is correct. If you are young, talented and you have a crazy idea that might just work and if you are given the opportunity then you go to the US every-time.
Why? Because it makes sense. Why stay in Berlin or Paris where you can make 50K to 70K euros a year at most and pay close to 40% or 50% in taxes when you can make double or triple that in the US or better yet, start your own company there and then expand in Europe after building it knowing that if you eventually sell it, you get to keep a lot of the sale price.
Talented people don't work for nothing. Motivated and ambitious people don't work for nothing.
If Europe wants to see it's own tech giants emerge, then it's needs to compensate founders and employees well. That's as simple as it is.
Unfortunately it's just not the case at the moment and until that changes, the most ambitious Europeans will continue leaving and building companies on the other side of the Atlantic.
> Why stay in Berlin or Paris where you can make 50K to 70K euros a year at most and pay close to 40% or 50% in taxes when you can make double or triple that in the US
It always amazes me that there is a subset of EU people here on HN who are so detached from reality that it makes me wonder if these same people are sitting in Brussels board making decisions. According to the sh*thole in which EU ended up, it is not completely implausible. Can't agree more with what you're saying. My experience is the same.
It's frustrating really to have these conversations with people who will deny the reality this much.
Instead of using this opportunity to ask the questions that everyone should be asking, which are amongst others "how can we fix this mess?" , you end up with people who think you are simply attacking the EU for spite when it couldn't be further from the truth.
It's sad but not surprising and until that changes then nothing will change.
Europeans need to start being humble again and need to get to work otherwise then we shouldn't be surprised if the US squeezes us from one side while China out-innovates us from the other side. In the meantime the EU is debating if/when it should amend it's cookie law, I am not sure if I should laugh or cry at this point.
> you end up with people who think you are simply attacking the EU
That's not what I think. But you obviously lack the level of empathy you would need to accept that I may think differently. I accept that you think the way you think: you benefit from it as a business owner.
> Instead of using this opportunity to ask the questions
Yeah, because you are so superior to everybody else that people should ask you question, and their opinions are not worth your time.
"I am the best, I am so frustrated that so many people don't recognise it".
When one has no response it's easier to blame the messenger. A nice cop out if I may say so.
> Yeah, because you are so superior to everybody else that people should ask you question, and their opinions are not worth your time
You are putting words in my mouth and arguing in bad faith but that's easier than making a compelling case with facts and figures.
> "I am the best, I am so frustrated that so many people don't recognise it".
If I was the only one highlighting these problems then maybe you would have point but as I have demonstrated in my other comments, the EU commission disagrees with you, the Draghi report disagrees with you and a few people here also disagree with you.
Unfortunately instead of engaging in a healthy debate and addressing the points that have been raised, you have brushed aside all the arguments and refuse to respond with anything that supports your point of view.
You decided that you were right so you are right but you don't seem to have a problem calling out other people by telling then that their opinions are not facts, while yourself ignoring all the facts presented to you. That is a clear case of double standards if I have ever seen one.
> Unfortunately instead of engaging in a healthy debate
Take it from my point of view: I said that I don't believe that Europe has no software industry at all. And I said that I don't believe that regulations are the reason Europe's software industry stuggles against the US monopolies.
What the US monopolies have been doing to maintain their position is very well documented, and has nothing to do with regulations.
You claim that it's possible to compete with a monopoly if you are not regulated, and you call it a fact. I disagree. I believe that we as a society should prevent monopolies, and the way to do that is regulations. And of course, if you prevent monopolies in Europe but play against monopolies who are allowed in other countries, it's hard.
Not yet and I'm not sure I'm gonna receive it ever but one of the most important things I learned for myself is to understand my limits. I advise you to do the same.
Exactly. This sentence on its own is enough to explain your opinion, there is no need to explain anything else. Those who are against regulations are the ones who benefit from the lack of regulations.
And those who are in a dominant position generally think that they are there because they deserve it, because they are superior.
> And those who are in a dominant position generally think that they are there because they deserve it, because they are superior.
And this sentence explains your opinion. Business owner = superior = bad
You haven't responded to anything anyone has said despite the fact that a few of us seem to agree on these issues.
You basically brush aside anything that does not conform to your narrative and you also dismiss the entire report of Mario Draghi on European competitiveness: https://commission.europa.eu/topics/competitiveness/draghi-r... who agrees that there are many issues currently with the entire tech industry in Europe.
The facts are simple:
- the EU tech scene is minuscule compared to the US tech scene
- the average salary of a tech worker is higher in the US than in Europe
- there are many incredible challenges in Europe that stop Europe from competing properly with the US companies
- there is a clear lack of innovation and a very real risk aversion and less cash spent on R&D in Europe compared to the US
- European competitiveness is lacking and decreasing as time goes on compared to the US
> Those who are against regulations are the ones who benefit from the lack of regulations.
But you are right let's keep adding more rules and regulations, I am sure the next one will do the trick and help us expand our tech sector.
That would be a great narrative except that even the European commission disagrees with you since they are now exploring the option of scaling back some part of GDPR and even delaying the new AI laws because they suddenly realized that it was a major impediment to a healthy tech sector in Europe: https://iapp.org/news/a/european-commission-proposes-signifi...
In conclusion, you are arguing in bad faith, you believe what you believe because it's easier than to face the facts that Europe dropped the ball 20 years ago and missed the boat on many new technologies and that it is now trying to play catch up and unfortunately catching up will take many decades if that ever happens.
Nope. I said that business owners are generally in a dominant position, and those who are in a dominant position generally think that they deserve it because they are superior. I didn't say "bad", I explained the bias. Everyone is biased.
> you also dismiss the entire report of Mario Draghi on European competitiveness
Maybe we can do that: I will look into Mario Draghi's report, and on your end you could have a look at what Cory Doctorow has to say about the US monopolies and antitrust policies?
So that at least we would get some amount of open-mindness out of this not-so-constructive discussion :-).
> In conclusion, you are arguing in bad faith
Yeah, I too think that you can go ** yourself :-). But I will read about Mario Draghi's opinion, maybe you can get some perspective from Doctorow. Bye!
Did I use the word "all" anywhere in my comment? There are good developers in Europe. What I am saying is that there would have been even more of them had the incentives not been so lackluster. More talent seems to generally result in a greater competitive ability.
Fwiw, I have doubts that currently Europe can compete with the US at the startup level, let alone at the bigco one.
I am not trying to drag Europe down - it worries me that sophisticated complacency, overconfidence based on the achievements of previous generations, and addiction to comfort, will start eroding the very aspects that make it a great place to live at.
