That only follows if you believe that viewing an advertisement is a discrete event with a discrete outcome, and has no outcome on future actions. Considering how much advertisement happens when you aren't in a position to immediately buy something, and how much research has gone into advertising and human perception, I don't believe that. Brand recognition works, at least in a lot of cases.
But that doesn't even matter. I believe you agreed to a trade, in this case attention for content, and what justification do you have for not following through on your end? It's not within your rights to decide that your portion of the trade doesn't really benefit the other party so you will withhold it, if they have delivered on their portion. That is their decision to make.
It sounds like this is our fundamental disagreement. I do not believe that requesting an HTML resource is an agreement to load all external resources and execute all JavaScript referenced in that HTML. I submit the request, and the remote server returns some HTML. In my view, that is a complete interaction with no unfulfilled obligations.
According to your argument, I am not within my rights to cURL a URL if that URL happens to point to an HTML that references some ad-related JavaScript.
So how does it affect your argument if the page was returned in it's entirety with all content inlined? If the ad-blocker could detect ads through some heuristic that was accurate enough, would that then change your view on its use? At that point you would be presented a singular resource. Is that enough to change your thoughts on what is acceptable? I suspect we are getting closer to the specific place where our beliefs and assumptions mismatch, but I'm not sure we've found it quite yet.
> So how does it affect your argument if the page was returned in it's entirety with all content inlined?
No, that doesn't change anything. I already mentioned executing JavaScript.
What are your thoughts on my mention of cURL? Do you think it's acceptable to run `curl www.cnn.com` from the command line? How about browsing the web with JavaScript turned off, or using a text-only browser?
What does javascript have to do with it? It's trivial to display images inline through data URLs. Javascript provides for some of the more onerous types of advertising, but it is by no means necessary to the process. We've all seen plenty of ways CSS could be leverages as an alternate solution.
Re: text only browsing, that still allows for advertising, and it's up to the content provider to either take advantage of the mediums available to the client or take steps to attempt to block that access. There are plenty of legitimate cases for text only internet (such as access for the blind).
Re: cURL, now we are getting more into scraping, and I think it's event more clear cut that it's not the intent of the provider for their content to be used that way, and there are much more often AUPs that specifically cover this in a non-ambiguous way.
This is something I've thought quite a bit about, as at times some of my major work projects have been based around web scraping. I've come to terms that some of the things I have done, and do, for work, are morally ambiguous (or even immoral) to a degree (although others may not see it that way at all).
Similarly, I myself run an ad-blocker, as I find the web untenable without one. I'm aware of how hypocritical this is. My argument has never been "do not run ad-blockers", it's always been just to point out what I see as a set of troubling behavior that I see, which I also contribute to. I would prefer not to block ads, but I don't see that as a strategy that's currently useful. That may make me worse than those that I view as ignorant of their actions. I'm prepared to live with this, at least in the short term.
Really,I'm just pushing what I see as introspection.
> What does javascript have to do with it? It's trivial to display images inline through data URLs.
My point applies to that too. Images, text, CSS, video, etc. I'm saying I don't have a problem with requesting an HTML file, receiving it, and then choosing to not render/execute/display certain parts of it.
> Re: text only browsing, that still allows for advertising, and it's up to the content provider to either take advantage of the mediums available to the client or take steps to attempt to block that access.
I agree, but that doesn't sound like your previous position.
> Re: cURL, now we are getting more into scraping, and I think it's event more clear cut that it's not the intent of the provider for their content to be used that way, and there are much more often AUPs that specifically cover this in a non-ambiguous way.
I'm not talking about programmatically requesting large amounts of content. I just meant a single individual running a single cURL command.
> My argument has never been "do not run ad-blockers", it's always been just to point out what I see as a set of troubling behavior that I see, which I also contribute to.
I guess I'm arguing that you don't need to be a hypocrite, because it's not troubling behavior.
> My point applies to that too. Images, text, CSS, video, etc. I'm saying I don't have a problem with requesting an HTML file, receiving it, and then choosing to not render/execute/display certain parts of it.
I think this is a fundamental difference. I think there's an implicit contract. Would you feel any different about it if it was explicit? If there was a preamble to every page that said you were licensed to view the content only if certain conditions were met, such as all included ads were displayed, does that change what you feel comfortable doing or not?
> I agree, but that doesn't sound like your previous position.
I don't think it's any different. It's about intent. Is someone using a text browser specifically to bypass ads? Then the text browser is in essence an ad-blocker (to the degree it works). If it's used because other circumstances that make it desirable or necessary, then it's up to the content provider to either disallow that access mechanism, or provide ads that work. This is the difference between a party failing to collect on their side of a contract, and a party failing to fulfill their side of a contract.
> I'm not talking about programmatically requesting large amounts of content. I just meant a single individual running a single cURL command.
It goes back to intent and text browsing. Any ad that could be made useful in text browsing would be just as applicable to what you got back from cURL. Either it's plain text, or you can parse the output. If oyu can parse it, you can see any included ads.
> I guess I'm arguing that you don't need to be a hypocrite, because it's not troubling behavior.
Eh, I think it is, on a small scale. Similar to littering occasionally with very small items.
And I do not. Do you feel that cURLing a URL violates this implicit contract?
> Would you feel any different about it if it was explicit?
Yes. If there were an explicit contract requiring the viewer to view ads in order to view the content, then using an adblocker would be a violation of that contract and would be liable for whatever damages the contract stipulates.
> If there was a preamble to every page that said you were licensed to view the content only if certain conditions were met, such as all included ads were displayed, does that change what you feel comfortable doing or not?
It depends on what this "preamble" is. If it's just text at the top of the page saying "the reader hereby agrees to also view the ads on this page," then no, I don't consider that an explicit contract.
> It's about intent. Is someone using a text browser specifically to bypass ads? Then the text browser is in essence an ad-blocker (to the degree it works).
I don't think intent is relevant in this case, because I do not believe there is anything resembling a contract.
> And I do not. Do you feel that cURLing a URL violates this implicit contract?
Depending on the site, yes.
> It depends on what this "preamble" is. If it's just text at the top of the page saying "the reader hereby agrees to also view the ads on this page," then no, I don't consider that an explicit contract.
How is it any different than someone on the street offering a free book if you read their short pamphlet beforehand? Is it any different if it's a sign that says it instead of a person? In both cases, I view taking the book while not reading the pamphlet stealing. You were only granted a copy of the book if you performed an action, and in both cases you failed to carry out the action, so a book was not granted. Thus the taking of the book was stealing.
> I don't think intent is relevant in this case, because I do not believe there is anything resembling a contract.
And that is the fundamental difference in our points of view. I believe there is an expectation on the part of the content providers for what they are providing, and as long as the consumer understands this expectation and purposefully ignores it, they are acting dishonestly.
> How is it any different than someone on the street offering a free book if you read their short pamphlet beforehand?
Because order is important. On the web, you ask a server for something and it gives it to you. If you ask someone on the street if you can have their book, and they give it to you, then the first page has some terms on it, I don't think those terms constitute a valid contract. And, of course, physical books are scarce, but that's another issue.
> I believe there is an expectation on the part of the content providers for what they are providing
I don't dispute that there is an expectation on the part of the content providers. I just don't think that an expectation is the same thing as a contract. I use the word "contract" to refer to an actual agreement between parties. If only one party is aware of and consenting to the terms, it is not a contract.
> If you ask someone on the street if you can have their book, and they give it to you, then the first page has some terms on it, I don't think those terms constitute a valid contract.
I think it outlines the contract, and you have the option of declining. By returning or otherwise disposing of the book.
> I just don't think that an expectation is the same thing as a contract. I use the word "contract" to refer to an actual agreement between parties. If only one party is aware of and consenting to the terms, it is not a contract.
I think this is relevant[1]. I think it's a stretch to say only one party is aware and consenting. Why is this content being provided? To assume it's freely available without any cost is a very self-serving view.
> I think it outlines the contract, and you have the option of declining. By returning or otherwise disposing of the book.
Do you genuinely believe that I would be obligated to return or dispose of the book in this scenario? If so, then I applaud you for consistency, and I can only say that I find that belief very bizarre.
> I think it's a stretch to say only one party is aware and consenting.
Well, I'm explicitly telling you that I don't consent, so unless I'm lying, it's pretty clear that I do not consent.
> Do you genuinely believe that I would be obligated to return or dispose of the book in this scenario? If so, then I applaud you for consistency, and I can only say that I find that belief very bizarre.
I believe we should. I think we rarely do (including myself). The terms were clear. I'm not arguing my point in the hope that we all stop using ad-blockers, I'm arguing my point in the hope that we we can realize that there's a bit of bad behavior on our part as consumers as well (that there's bad behavior from purveyors of ads or that it started with them I believe and accept as fact, but I don't think that entirely alleviates our culpability).
> Well, I'm explicitly telling you that I don't consent, so unless I'm lying, it's pretty clear that I do not consent.
I have no problem with you withholding your consent. I have a problem with that consent being part of a deal and you withholding it while still accepting what it was being traded for.
I'm still not understanding your argument that you feel justified in taking something when you know you aren't supposed to have/use it. I can lay it out in myriad different ways, with different goods, difference services, but in the end, I think they are all the same thing. There's a trade going on, and if you aren't fulfilling your side, you have no right to the goods of the other side. That you've received the goods makes no difference to me. I may have fruit in my hands at the store while approaching the counter, but they aren't mine until I've paid. If I choose not to pay, it's my responsibility to return ownership to the store (or in the case of a non-tangible good, to not utilize it). Your consent matters only as to whether you want to complete the trade. You consent has no bearing on whether you have right to goods after you've chosen not to trade, at least not legally, or I would submit, morally.
But that's just it. The terms weren't clear when the transaction occurred. To me, temporal order is important. It's basically the concept of "informed consent."
> I have a problem with that consent being part of a deal and you withholding it while still accepting what it was being traded for.
Again, the order of events matters.
> I'm still not understanding your argument that you feel justified in taking something when you know you aren't supposed to have/use it.
I disagree about whether I'm "supposed" to have it. I don't have a problem with acquiring something in a transaction (and agreeing to all terms at the moment of the transaction) and then using it in a way the other party did not intend.
> I may have fruit in my hands at the store while approaching the counter, but they aren't mine until I've paid. If I choose not to pay, it's my responsibility to return ownership to the store (or in the case of a non-tangible good, to not utilize it).
But in your analogy, I bought the fruit at the time. The store teller told me the price, I paid it, and the teller sent me on my way. Then I got home, opened the bag of fruit, and found a note that says "the purchaser of this fruit hereby agrees to not bake this fruit into a pie." My position is that I simply do not care about this note. I acquired the fruit in a transaction which clearly did not involve that term. I will not return the fruit and I'll bake it into a pie if I please.
Only inasmuch as when you decide to continue or bail on the deal.
> But in your analogy, I bought the fruit at the time. The store teller told me the price, I paid it, and the teller sent me on my way. Then I got home, opened the bag of fruit, and found a note that says "the purchaser of this fruit hereby agrees to not bake this fruit into a pie."
That's not my analogy at all. I think my description fits rather well. When in the store holding the fruit prior to paying, is equivalent to the point you've retrieved content but have not yet viewed it. At the register is when you are presented with the choice, view with ads, or go somewhere else. By running an ad blocker, you skip the register entirely. You pick up fruit, and walk out the door.
> My position is that I simply do not care about this note. I acquired the fruit in a transaction which clearly did not involve that term.
In my example, the payment is at the register is the only transaction. If that's not money, then maybe it's the clerk saying "you can have that fruit free as long as you promise not to cook a pie with it." You've apparently convinced yourself it's okay to agree to this and then ignore the stipulation later.
> I will not return the fruit and I'll bake it into a pie if I please.
If you paid for it, yes. But somehow you've paid for it AND gotten a rider on it's usage, which has never entered our discussion until this point, and is not something I've been arguing.
> When in the store holding the fruit prior to paying, is equivalent to the point you've retrieved content but have not yet viewed it.
That's not correct. Retrieving content over the Internet consists of explicitly requesting a resource and the server explicitly returning the resource. This isn't some technicality. It's how computer networks are deliberately designed. There are plenty of ways to control access to a resource if the content owner so desires.
If you go into a store, ask the store owner if you can take the fruit without paying, and the store owner obliges, then I think it's acceptable to do so.
But the store owner is telling you how you are supposed to take the friut if you want it free, you've just decided to listen selectively (with an ad blocker).
But that doesn't even matter. I believe you agreed to a trade, in this case attention for content, and what justification do you have for not following through on your end? It's not within your rights to decide that your portion of the trade doesn't really benefit the other party so you will withhold it, if they have delivered on their portion. That is their decision to make.